10 Secrets to Optimizing Your Online Donation Process for Maximum Dollars Raised and Retained
Air Date: July 17, 2019
Donations made online is one of the fastest-growing gift channels. While it’s not yet a juggernaut, it is significant enough to pay attention to. And if your online gift processes aren’t operating according to best practices for user-experience and donor stewardship, you may be leaving a lot of money on the table.
In this webinar, Steven Shattuck will examine 10 simple, research-backed fixes that any fundraiser can make to their online donation process. You’ll leave with the confidence that your donation pages and forms can convert any visitor into a donor – and retain that donor for years to come.
– Understand how and why donors complete your donation forms
– Uncover best practices for conversion rate optimization that maximizes the gift amount and frequency
– Learn how to formulate a retention strategy for online donors through enhanced gift acknowledgement and stewardship
Jay Frost: (01:02)
Hey everybody, this is Jay Frost speaking to you. I’ve been gone for a bit and we are also a having a slow season here in July until now. So it’s so great to be back with you and have you all back here in the 2019 flash class series are kicking off the latter part of July with a bang with Steven Shattuck, our presenter, John Cornea, uh, have the opportunity to introduce to you in just a moment. But before that, of course, I want to take a minute to first welcome you and encourage you to go ahead and grab your colleagues, get something nice and cool to drink. It’s probably hot where you are. It seems to be hot almost everywhere. Uh, this week. Um, make yourselves comfortable around your favorite electronic device and get ready for another great session. Of course, if you’ve heard all this before, you can go ahead and plug your ears or go ahead and grab your friends.
Jay Frost: (01:47)
Um, but if you haven’t, please do sit tight for just a second. As I tell you about this platform and the ways that you can interact with the content and with our presenter today, I’m going to start right there with telling you that you can and will in fact receive the slides and the recording of this session if you wish. Uh, the slides will come to you directly via email from DonorSearch. So be on the lookout for that. And a recording of the session will be placed on the DonorSearch site right there at donorsearch.net under the resources tab. As you can see on the screen. If you were to go in fact to the resources tab and toggled down to flash class library and click that, you’d see something just like this, it’s a recorded videos page where all the sessions that have been recorded back to mid 2016 or catalog, there are now close to 200 of these.
Jay Frost: (02:35)
And you can sort through all the content in a variety of ways, including by, of course, title and presenter and Keyword. And this session will be there in the library in the next couple of days. So if you have, uh, people in the office, you’d like to share this with other friends in the industry, we wanna encourage you to take a look for it there and they’ll be able to gain access to it and in fact benefit from the CFRE credit as well. Now in terms of today’s session, of course, we have silenced your microphones and I’ll be silencing mine momentarily. So if there’s an ambulance passing by a dog barking in the background or anything like that, you won’t be hearing it. Uh, but instead what we wanted to do is encourage you to go ahead and interact as often and again as frequently as you wished by simply following the bouncing Arrow to the questions tab.
Jay Frost: (03:21)
And that’s the place where we’d like you to go ahead and list any question or for that matter, any comment at any time during the presentation. And I’ll be storing those up and then sharing those with our presenter at the conclusion of his presentation so he can answer them right then and there. So please don’t wait, don’t hesitate. Go ahead, ask your questions and comments right in the questions tab and uh, and of course you’ll have a chance to insert them at the conclusion. If for any reason we run out of time to do that, uh, if you don’t get your question answered, all those questions will be forwarded to Stephen at the conclusion as well. So you’ll have a chance to interact with him after the fact and he is a great resource for our industry as you’ll hear if you don’t know him from before.
Jay Frost: (04:02)
Um, and uh, and so I’m sure you’ll be very happy to get to know him again if you haven’t met previously. Um, the session he’s doing today, as you can see right here is one that’s a big deal for all of us and he’s giving you his top 10 secrets, so you’re going to be happy to learn them from a man who knows his stuff. Steven Shattuck, chief engagement officer at Bloomerang. Steven’s a Prolific writer and speaker. He curates Bloomerang sector leading educational content and hosts a weekly Webinar series featuring the top thought leaders in the nonprofit sector. In fact, he’s got another session tomorrow. So after you’re done here today, go ahead and take a look at what they’ve got on the calendar right there. It’s Victoria deets. He’ll be happy to hear that session. Steven got his start in the nonprofit sector producing fundraising videos and other digital content for organizations like Butler University, which is also his alma mater and other digital content for organizations like a girl scouts, Christian Church and the American Heart Association wide variety.
Jay Frost: (05:00)
Uh, he volunteers his time on the project work group of the fundraising effectiveness project. Uh, the, uh, study of fundraising steering group at the Heart Center for sustainable philanthropy at Plymouth University as well. He’s also a, an AFP center for Fundraising Innovation Committee member. He’s contributed content to the National Council of nonprofits, AFP n 10 and nonprofit hub. And it’s a frequent conference speaker, uh, having spoken at lots of different gatherings, including AFP international, NATO cause Camp ADRP, et Cetera, et Cetera, et cetera. He’s also coauthor of fundraising principles and practice the second edition. So be on the lookout for that. If you don’t have it on your shelf in 2015, he cofounded a really, really innovated enterprise and bringing it to the nonprofit sector. And that’s launch costs. I registered 501C3 dedicated to helping emerging nonprofits in the Indianapolis area where Bloomerang is based so they can enhance the impact of their work. It’s an incubator for nonprofits. Really, really wonderful innovation for our sector is the recipient of the David Letterman scholarship. Um, and it, uh, from ball state where he graduated in 2006 with a degree in telecommunications. And creative writing is definitely, uh, a person who is contributing so much to our industry and our field. And it’s such a great pleasure to have back to the flashcard stage. Steven Shattuck. Steven.
Steven Shattuck: (06:23)
Well thanks Jay. Really appreciate the introduction though. A super kind. I’m going to share my screen with you folks and uh, and we’ll get rolling. So thanks for being here. Um, it makes the day in DonorSearch and uh, everyone over there from making this happen. And thanks to all of you for taking time out of your busy schedule. I know that, you know, new, new months of the first, uh, in the fiscal year, maybe you’ve got some fall events coming up. So, uh, so thanks for doing this. It’s always nice be a full room. Um, a you want to come in and listen to me. So I’ll skip my bios slides since I got that very nice introduction and we’ll jump right in. So we’re going to be talking today about a what is commonly referred to as conversion rate optimization. So kind of a wordy phrase, sometimes scary, um, but basically what im going to do over the next hour is just giving you some ideas of how you can make it easier, uh, for people to give to you online through your website, on your online donation page, on your website.
Steven Shattuck: (07:22)
Not only do we want to reduce any technical barriers, reduce any friction, there may be, you know, we don’t want people to land on your site and then not fill out the form. Um, but we also want people to have a good time doing it. And, uh, and, and I’ll kind of make the case for why I think that’s important as well. Um, this is a topic that we could spend hours and hours on. It can get very technical. It can get very, very kind of into weeds. Yeah. But I’m going to kind of give you, like Jay said, 10 pretty simple tips of how you can basically kind of dip your toes into the a conversion rate optimization
Steven Shattuck: (08:00)
waters. So let’s dive in. We’ll start with number one. And, uh, I think it’s always good to begin in a mindset of retention. So we’re going to be talking about acquisition today, but, um, I think it’s always important to have in the back of your mind, Hey, what are we going to do to retain these donors? So you, you know, nine out of 10 are going to be focused on acquisition here, but I just wanted to kind of start by giving you, um, a little bit of an awareness that you should want to retain these donors in addition to want them to actually complete the a donation form on your website, which is important, but we want to retain them as well. We’re not very good at retaining donors. This is the most recent donor retention data from FDP.
Steven Shattuck: (08:47)
The 43% on average is our donor retention rate in the sector even lower for first time donors, 20%. Uh, so 80% of first time donors do not come back and give a second gift. So if this is the first gift someone makes a to your nonprofit, uh, through the website, eight out of 10 of them are not going to come back. So we want to definitely, um, stem those tides for sure. You want to get that second gift. We want to get a monthly gift. We’re going to talk about how to maybe getting monthly commitments on your website through non-aligned donations forms, but we want to retain these people. Don’t want to just get that one gift because if it costs more to acquire that donor, then the gift they actually gave, you know, if you spend $20 to acquire a $10 gift through your website, well you’ve got negative ROI.
Steven Shattuck: (09:39)
Want that second gift to go ahead and break even and maybe even make some more money on that donation. So I want to give you a few ideas of what you can do through your website to your online giving software. No matter what you’re using, you’re donor database provider, no matter where you using of how to make that experience. One that kind of lends itself to the donor wanting to give. Again, rather than just getting that transaction, we’ll spend a lot of time talking about how to get the transaction. Do you want to keep them giving? Um, after that happens, what we see, uh, in terms of retention data, pretty interesting. This is data from Blackbaud, um, where they found that there are pretty marked differences in donor retention rates by channel. You don’t see it as much by age. Sometimes a little bit of a myth.
Steven Shattuck: (10:27)
I hear, you know, millennial donors are less loyal or somehow, you know, more finicky about their gifts from the older donors. Don’t we see that where we see that is differences in online versus offline. So the other reason I put retention in this presentation is that retention rates are typically lower for these online gifts. You know, it’s easier to make an online gift there. It doesn’t necessarily have to be an existing conversation or relationship. You know, it’s really easy to pull up your phone and make a donation. It’s easy to clip that donate button on Facebook. Um, you know, it’s easy to get a donation from basically anywhere online. Um, so that’s why I really want to focus in on retaining these people because even though our retention rates are, you know, between 40 and 30% on average, there, even lower online and they’re even lower for first time donations online.
Steven Shattuck: (11:25)
So my advice to you here is that you don’t wait. Steward these online donors. The good news is, is that you can do that in an automated way. Your online giving provider, whether you’re using, you know, network for good or you know, Q give or boomerang or if it’s through your donor database, like a donor perfect or a neon, whatever you’re using, you should have the ability to go in and customize what the donor receives from you or sees right after they make a donation. So imagine that you’re on your nonprofits websites, you click donate, you fill out the donation form, you put in your credit card number, you click donate. Well right away that donor is going to get two things from you. They’re going to see your confirmation page, which is the page of the website that they are sent to after they click donate.
Steven Shattuck: (12:20)
And they’re also probably going to receive an email from your online giving provider that is kind of like a receipt, you know, saying, Hey, we got your transaction, here’s your, you have your transaction information. Um, and, and thank you. Hopefully it’s the thank you. We’ll talk about that are these two things are totally automated. Well, what I see a lot of people do or don’t do rather is go in and customize these things. Usually the software we have has like a default setting for these two things and it requires you to go in and, and optimize them or personalize them in some way. But a lot of times that does not happen in our confirmation pages are really boring, right? Someone clicks donate and they just get sent to this kind of blank, almost blank page that says, hey, thanks for donating. You know, your transaction was processed, blah, blah blah.
Steven Shattuck: (13:10)
And that’s basically it. But what I think is that this confirmation page is such an awesome, sneaky, good place to start stewarding that donor to say more than just thank you, to say maybe about how the impact of their gift is going to, it’s going to happen. Um, give the donor something else to do. Maybe watch a video, uh, you know, read a blog posts, see a story about a service recipient. Give that donor something else to do on this page? Don’t leave them hanging because as you can see on this page, basically once I read, thank you for your donation, I’m probably just going to close the browser window and go on with my day. Right? But that’s such a missed opportunity. We want to tell that donor or give that donor something to do. Like I said, you know, check out a blog post, watch a video, volunteer opportunities and event calendar, visit social media, read the previous newsletter.
Steven Shattuck: (14:05)
Check out matching gift opportunities. There are dozens, maybe even hundreds of things you could do on this page, but usually these pages, all they do is say thank you and nothing else. This one is a little bit better. There’s some nice really donor centric language in addition to a thank you. You know, you just change lives. Your investment in the community is already being put to work, work. It’s a stock photo but it’s better than no photo at all. Um, but I think again, what this page kind of suffers from is now what now the donors supposed to do. Pretty much the only thing that the donor can do after looking at this, you know, brief paragraph and Nice picture is close the website. Well let’s give that donor something else to do because the more they do, the likely it is that they’re going to convert into some other action later on.
Steven Shattuck: (14:55)
So an event calendar, volunteer opportunities, even video, I’m starting to see video a lot more on thank you pages or these confirmation pages. This is an organization in indie where, Ah, you click donate and it takes you to this page where there’s a little cell phone video that kind of takes you on a tour, okay. Of The facility of the nonprofit and you see a service recipients, uh, hanging out, uh, with the volunteers and everyone is saying thank you into the camera and smiling and you really do get a sense that it’s organization is doing good work and you can make that feeling or feel good about that donation that they just made. So even if you keep [inaudible] that donor’s attention for a couple more minutes and then one more minute it’s going to make them feel better about that gift that they just Dave and that kind of what sets the foundation for a second gift or an additional gift sometime later.
Steven Shattuck: (15:48)
So when you go in to customize these pages, consider telling a story, maybe embedding a little bit of a little video and it doesn’t have to be a Hollywood production. This is a simple cell phone video. You know, it’s one shot, it’s not edited, but it does more then any sort of generic statement or you know, no statements. Certainly. So video, great thing to put on here. If it’s just text and, and, and a couple of paragraphs story, that’s okay too. But give that donor something to kind of sink their teeth into rather than just kind of that, well we got your donation, you know, have a nice day. And then they, and then they closed your website basically, which is not what you want to do. If you do customize these pages, don’t put too much on there. Don’t give the donors too much to do.
Steven Shattuck: (16:35)
I really like all of the things that are on this page. You’ve got some nice story county. You’ve got a nice thank you. An impact statement, certainly a lot for the donor to do. You can check out the recent annual report. Uh, you can explore, uh, Yup. Previous commentary. I think those are blog posts, a social media. There’s a video, just a couple of signup forms. I would pick maybe one or two things, maybe three things tops, although that might be pushing it a little, um, that you really want that donor to do. You know, if you’re not active on social media, I wouldn’t push people to those social media channels. Um, if you don’t have a robust kind of calendar of upcoming volunteer opportunities, I wouldn’t link people to that. If you are an organization that really relies or has a kind of robust matching giving program, no, put that there a link to a survey.
Steven Shattuck: (17:30)
You know, if you want to learn more about why the donor gave just now, which hopefully you do want to learn those things. A survey is a great thing to put on this page, but don’t load it up with too many options because what web design theory tells us is the more options you give someone, the less likely it is that they’re going to do any of those things. So pick A couple of things that are kind of meaningful to you. Um, and don’t be afraid to change it out. You know, you can ab test these pages, you can let something run for a few months and then change it out and then kind of compare your results. Or you can just kind of look at your live analytics data. Oh, if you have like Google analytics installed on your website, you can see, hey, what are people clicking?
Steven Shattuck: (18:09)
And more importantly, what are people not clicking? So a couple of things there. So the confirmation page is one that I would definitely encourage you to go in and customize, optimize, give that donor something to do. Most importantly, say, thank you. Put a smile on that donor face. You know, it’s your support that makes all these things possible because of people like you. You know? Nice donor centric language. I think it’s appropriate for these pages. Then we have that automatic email confirmation, that automatic receipt, you know, the ones, the one that people get immediately after giving. It comes to their inbox within seconds. Um, usually like the confirmation page, these things are very boring and robotics and transactional I think is the most important thing. Most most of you listening should be able to go in and customize these emails, but maybe you haven’t thought about it and maybe nobody’s told you that, you know, that’s a good thing to do.
Steven Shattuck: (19:07)
Um, I think sometimes the vendors, um, let people down and then don’t encourage people to go in. Um, there is no reason why these emails can’t look like really nice gift acknowledgement even though they go out to everybody. Yeah, you can’t customize them and personalize them too much, but they shouldn’t look so scary. You know, it shouldn’t lead with receipt. It shouldn’t lead with big red letters that they important. You know, this one does not even say thank you, but literally all only is a receipt with kind of a, a scary red paragraph there in the middle. Um, and again, if this is first gift that someone has ever made to your organization, this is the first thing they ever receive from you after becoming a donor. And I really think that’s why we have lower retention rates on the online side versus the offline side.
Steven Shattuck: (19:58)
Because offline donors typically get a nice letter in the mail, you know, a nice phone call perhaps a handwritten note. And online donors can get those things too. But online donors first get this automatic email receipt. So we know another one, there’s kind of an attachment there. They got, you know, it’s taught by my spam filter, looks kind of scary, don’t really know what that one is. This one’s a little bit better and we should sort of branded. But these things, you know, it kind of looks like something that you would get from a grocery store or from a gas station, right? And this is fundraising, right? This is nonprofits, this is philanthropy. These things should not feel super transactional. This is uh, the other side of the coin. This is a, this is actually the email from that organizations that had the video on their confirmation page showed you.
Steven Shattuck: (20:47)
So imagine clicking donate. Yeah, go into that nice page, the video. Uh, and then moving from that to the inbox where there’s this nice email that you could probably print out and mail to them, you know, maybe take the social media buttons out. But other than that, it’s a pretty nice letter, right? You’ve got a nice service recipient photo, nice branding. And the paragraph I think is just so well written. You know, your gift will help provide this this and this you’re helping kids unlock their there future. And by the way, we’re going to send you a letter in the mail. So telling the donor what it is that comes next in that communication sequence. Um, but this is a nice automatic email that yeah, I know they went in right and they may look, you look really nice. So do that. And then I love at the bottom that they give the donor something to do.
Steven Shattuck: (21:40)
So just like the confirmation page and give the donor something to do. So should that email to keep up with what’s happening and see success stories you make possible follow us on social media so they give the donor something to do. So if you give the donor something to do in both places and make sure they’re not the same, maybe if the confirmation page talks about volunteer opportunities or matching gifts, then the email can talk about maybe social media over lead to a survey, right? So kind of mix and match there. Don’t duplicate efforts. Um, but you can see how this one works nicely. I think in tandem with the page, with the video on it. Another example, you know, Dear Steven, your contribution that’s going to be put to work, that future tense language I think is really useful here because you haven’t spent their money yet, but you still want to talk about impact.
Steven Shattuck: (22:32)
So Hey, you know, this is what you can expect or we can’t wait to show you all the great things your dollars are going to do over the next few years. So, um, and this purpose is an automatic email, but it looks personal. You know, it really does come from the Ed and I would put this email up against any of those kinds of receding type emails I showed you before. Another example, I think you probably get the picture, but service recipient photos, nice donor center texts, you know, you’re a hero, you’re making a difference. Um, and then give that donor an opportunity to interact with you. Um, if you ever have any questions, you know, just reach out to him anytime. Another example, we made a little thank you video for you that links back to the website so you can watch a thank you video there.
Steven Shattuck: (23:21)
Um, but all of these emails totally automated. They were just customized, uh, one time and made to look nice. Besides those little receipts, charity, water, you know, they’re so good at all this stuff. They do the same thing. I liked that they did a survey. We want to continue to improve your experience. So to help us do that, please tell us more about yourself. And of course, survey the social media video matching gifts in that calendar. So there’s a lot that you can put emails. They don’t just have to be the end of the conversation. I think they should be the start of the conversation. So that’s, that’s Kinda my retention spiel for you. Um, now let’s talk about how to reduce all of that friction. So then you get more online gifts. We don’t want people to come to your page, do not fill out the form or fill out half of the form and get stuck or maybe get distracted.
Steven Shattuck: (24:16)
We’re going to talk about distracting right there. Um, but I think the first investing you should do just to make sure that you have a branded giving page. Okay. So what’s their brand branded giving page? Well, it’s basically three types of online donation pages. There’s a payment processor page, which is something that is generated by a third party online giving provider. So like a paypal page? When they leave your website, they click donate and they go to a paypal page as a payment processes page. That’s bad. We’ll talk about why that’s bad in a minute. Next best thing is a branded donation page that is connected to your online data provider and I’ll show you kind of like an in between and I’ll show you what that looks like, but the best thing you should do is to have your website, you go to yourwebsite.org/donate and there is a form on that page to fill out.
Steven Shattuck: (25:12)
You don’t want people to go from the donate page to another page that actually has the form. Okay. The more steps you have, the more likely to that people are going to not complete that form. You don’t want a ton of steps. You don’t want a ton of clips, a clicks. You want someone to go to nonprofit.org/donate And there’s a form right there on that page. You shouldn’t have any other steps besides that. We have data that shows that when you have a page like that, not only does it get more donations, but it gets a higher dollar amount within those donations. So let me show you an example of this. So here’s the nonprofits website. You Click donate, you come to this page, you know it’s slash donate on the URL, but there’s another button they have to click to get to the actual, donate page, right?
Steven Shattuck: (26:03)
They have to click donate again only to be sent to a paypal page or a page like this where you’re, you’re gone from that nonprofit’s website and now you’re on the payment processors website and you know, somehow behind the scenes they know it’s going to get to that nonprofit. This is bad. This is a absolutely killer of conversions. It’s sometimes alarming to the donor and they’re like, Whoa, where am I? I thought I was on this nonprofits website. Now I’m on paypal. Like, what’s going on? Is this a real thing? No. Worldpay this looks totally scary. This like, looks like they’re like donating to a bond villain or something like that. Um, this is a killer. And this is, you know, it’s been proven a billion times over, um, by all kinds of conversion rate optimization tests and experiments and research. If you have something like this, you’re going to get less donations then people who, I don’t have somebody like that.
Steven Shattuck: (27:00)
So we have a nice page on your website with a form that is on their website and they can fill it out right then and there. So if you have an online giving provider that this is the only way to do it, honestly, I would recommend you change vendors. If you’re only taking donations through paypal, you should add in something that is more native to websites. I’m not saying ditch paypal some donors may actually want to get through paypal. We should not be the only option. Um, so what another, uh, Kinda in between step that we see is, you know, you click donate and then you’re taken to a page that is a little bit better than the paypal page. You still have control over it. Maybe your online giving provider or your database lets you customize it. This is useful for people. That may be, I don’t have a lot of technical skills.
Steven Shattuck: (27:46)
They don’t have maybe control of their website and they can’t embed a form. This is for sure better, especially if you can bring that branding over from your website or from your domain. But again, the best thing to do is to have a form right on your donate page. So you can see the URL here, no partnership, fca.com/donate and when you’re on that slash donate page, the form is right there and it can be filled out and there’s no more steps. This is by far the best thing you can do for conversions. It’s just have that form right then and there. So if you’re using like a bloomerang or a network for good and they let you embed that form on any page of your website, this is the page to do it on. Not only does it increased conversions, but it also allows you to do other things like promote the page.
Steven Shattuck: (28:41)
So let’s pretend that you have a, let’s look at two options here. So a nice URL, no Coburn duck place. Our Coburn place.org/donate versus one of those weird payment processor pages that is a long gobbledigook. It doesn’t look like a real website. You know, you can’t put that on a print piece know you can’t be talking to someone in person or on the phone. Uh, you know, you could say, hey, just go to the Coburn place slash donate and donate. Well, you don’t want to be able to, you don’t have to say Go to something dot org slash site slash c seven o j I l you know, you can’t say that to someone. It just allowed you to also distribute that page in a much more organic way. Not to mention it looks more authoritative. There’s less clicks for the donor. There’s less steps for the donor.
Steven Shattuck: (29:32)
Honestly, I could, I could end the presentation here because if you make this one change, your conversion rates were going to go up and probably go up pretty substantially, honestly. Um, but luckily for you, I got eight more tips and we’re at a roll through them because they’re pretty useful. A third thing is these pages on your website, sure look good on any device, especially in mobile depicted. The only thing I need to spend a lot of time, you know, convincing you that we live in a mobile world, right? Some of you are probably even listening to this webinar on a mobile device. Maybe you’re watching the recording on an iPad or something like that. The better your website is perfect more on mobile devices. Um, even I even laptops, you know, laptops nowadays it can be small and you know, that screen gets crunched in there.
Steven Shattuck: (30:22)
Um, more conversions and more donations that are going to get, you’ve probably had an experience of maybe going through a website on your phone and struggling to maybe fill out a form. You know, maybe you were kind of pinching and swiping and trying to get everything typed in there. Uh, that can be a killer for online donations. Gotta be really easy for that donor to fill out that form no matter what device they’re using. And if you need some ammo to maybe convince your boss or your board members that this is an investment that we want to make. Uh, here’s some case studies for you where basically donations have doubled more than doubled after a responsive website redesign. So the key word here is responsive. That is kind of mobile friendly on steroids. Um, if you are in the midst of her website redesign or maybe considering a website redesign, make sure you ask that person or that agency, hey, it’s our website going to be responsive question and then be quiet and let them answer.
Steven Shattuck: (31:30)
If they don’t immediately say yes, it will be responsive period. Um, you’ve got a problem if they hesitate or if they maybe look kind of deer in the headlights or if they say, well it’s going to be mobile friendly, you know, that’s mad responsive means something. It is either responsive or not a web designer worth their salt should be able to say, yes, it will be responsive and I’ll be able to show that to you. So be really careful. Be Very weary of things like, you know, mobile friendly or mobile optimized. Best Word is responsive. So what responsive means that it literally responds to whatever screen size or resolution that device is looking at. She can see here’s the same donation page on a desktop computer versus on a phone or maybe a larger tablet. I’m not really sure, probably a phone. Um, but you can see big blue button, it has the same branding, uh, as the desktop version.
Steven Shattuck: (32:30)
And you could click those things. So make sure not only that your website is responsive but that the, the technology that creates [inaudible] form. Cause usually those are two different things. You have your page and you have to explore both of those things. You want to be responsive to ask your web designer and ask your online giving provider response. Responsive. responsive is the word. Okay. My favorite number four, no escape. So no escape means that we don’t want to distract the donor from making that donation. Sometimes we shoot ourselves in the foot a little bit where they’re on this nice page and there’s a lot of things that they can do on that page besides donate. Uh, in the web design world, this typically referred to as the toothpaste train. So toothpaste trains means that too much on the screen and it paralyzes them, the website visitor and doing nothing.
Steven Shattuck: (33:27)
And where that comes from is like the toothpaste style at the grocery store. There’s so many different toothpastes and it can be hard to actually shop for them. Well, the same thing happened on a website. If we give the donor too many things to do. So I like this page and it’s really nice looking and the form is awesome, but above that form it’s kind of a lot of stuff that I think might actually distract that donor. So you’ve got the navigation bar, you’ve got this nice kind of slider image thing with the arrows, so that just kind of like begging to be clicked. Right. And then you’ve got that form below the, the bottom half of the page. So what I recommend, uh, if you get rid of , all of that stuff basically. And it’s okay to have some supporting content. In fact, you want supporting content besides the, forms.
Steven Shattuck: (34:23)
You don’t want that to really pull a ton of attention away from the donor. You don’t want things if it can be clicked or scroll through. You don’t want the donor to have to scroll for your website form. And you certainly don’t want that navigation kind of getting in the way. Cause there’s like a dozen things right there that they can do. And donors Kinda finicky when you see it. You know, maybe when you’re on a website, when you’re going shopping or like being on Amazon, it, there’s a lot of stuff that can pull you away from actually completing that transaction. So, uh, what I like about this next website is here’s their homepage. You know, you click donate and then you’re taken to the donation page where all of that other stuff is stripped out. Like it still maintains the branding. But notice on this donation page is that there’s none of that navigation.
Steven Shattuck: (35:13)
Like there’s no navigation bar. There’s no sidebar, there’s no scrolling required. Everything is right there at the top of the page, but you still have that nice supporting content and you’ve got that text on the left, you know, support the American prospects. And then most importantly you’ve got that nice form. So in terms of web design, your donation page, should look different than the the rest of the site that may be maintained, that navigation or sidebars or things like that on these pages, all you want the donor to do is donate versus a homepage. You want to give the donor lots of things because you’re not really sure what they’re interested in yet. But if you get someone to the donation page, they’re interested in donating, all you need to do is get out of their way basically. So ideally that’s all there is on this, no branding supporting content.
Steven Shattuck: (36:11)
But the only thing that you want clickable is the actual donation form. So get rid of those distractions, get rid of the navigation and then make sure the form appears on that top half of the page. You don’t want anyone to have to scroll to get to the form. Okay. So let’s talk about the form. We spend a lot of time on it page. Well let’s get into the details of the form. So you probably have to decide, you definitely have to decide what it is that you’re going to ask or on that form and depending on what you know, online giving provider you’re using, you can probably asked for really as much as you want. You know, you have to ask for name and an address cause it’s gotta verify the credit card number. You got asked for the credit card number obviously. Um, beyond on that, you know, contact information, email addresses, nice cause you want to be able to send that receipt.
Steven Shattuck: (37:04)
Certainly a phone number. Maybe an interesting thing that you want to ask for there. You might also want to ask, you know, is this gift in memory or in honor someone, you may want to ask a question like, hey, why are you giving today? You know, what prompted this gift today? That donation form can be pretty long and there’s a lot of debate about the length of the form. Some people say, you know, the shorter the for the better. Other people kind of say, well that’s not necessarily true. If you ask questions in certain ways that are relevant, no, you can get away with asking more questions and certainly the page is nice. You can get away with asking for more questions. So my advice to you would be this basically whatever you ask for, make sure that’s what you’re going to use immediately. If you are asking for a phone number but have absolutely no um, plans to call that donor and say thank you, then don’t ask for phone number.
Steven Shattuck: (38:08)
If you’re not going to do something with the information you’re asking in that form, don’t ask for it. That’s basically my advice to you. Now, if you are gung ho about calling donors to say thank you, which I really like, I think we should do that. Then you should ask for the phone number. I wouldn’t require the phone number. If it is a donor who does not want to give you their phone number and you require it, guess what, they’re not going to donate because they can’t fill out that form without giving that phone number. You’re not going to do anything with the information that you’re asking for, don’t ask for it. Okay. And you can always go back later on and ask more questions. You can ask questions on that confirmation page. Right? You can link to a survey, you can have a form to fill out on the confirmation page.
Steven Shattuck: (38:53)
You know, you can ask more questions there. Have more [inaudible] to fill out. No, this isn’t your only opportunity to find out as much as you can about the donor. So don’t load it up just because you think this is the only time we can get this information. So be judicious, you know, have an honest conversation with yourself and say, okay, what are we going to do? Um, because if you load up the form, okay. And do you ever do anything with, with that information? I think your conversions are definitely going to suffer. Um, and if you ask a bunch of questions, you’re kinda setting an expectation in that donor’s mind. Right? So if you don’t follow through, they may wonder, gee, why did they ask all that information about me? Like what are they doing with that stuff? So lots and lots of difference.
Steven Shattuck: (39:40)
Um, interesting intricacies there. Um, but my advice is just okay, ask for what you’re going to use right away and what you really need initially stupid that donor. Cause you can always go back and uh, and get more information. Like I said. Okay, so giving ladders. So on your donation you’re probably going to suggest donation amounts. You know, you’re going to say you don’t have a write in amount where the donor can write in whatever they want to give. But you might also have $10, $20, $50, $100. That’s typical. That’s good if you do that. My recommendation is that you justify the reasons why you’re asking for those dollar amounts. The reason for that is, is that we have a ton of research that shows that donors like to know what their dollars, what their donations are being spent on. This is research from the donor voice, but we have research from, and that will be work from Adrian Sargent.
Steven Shattuck: (40:40)
I mean it’s all over the place. Donor voice puts it in their top seven is that the donor wants to know how that money is being spent because it makes the donor feel like they’re actually making a real impact. How in the world. So that’s why I love, um, this giving ladder from Coburn place where yeah, they’re asking for $15 and $50 and $100, but they are tying it to actual uses that? The nonprofit may spend that money on. Now you’re not necessarily walking someone into like a fun designation or anything like that. You’re just kind of giving them a broad feeling of how it is that that money is going to be spent and what difference it’s going to make. So, you know, 15 dollars provide, uh, one night for a family who suffering abuse $150 provide a specialist that helps them learn, find permanent housing.
Steven Shattuck: (41:40)
So not only does it kind of get the donor’s wheels turning, but it also kind of shows that hey, this organization is actually doing some really awesome things and it may even increase the amount of money that that donor gives. Cause they may come into this site thing, you know what, I’ll give 10 bucks, but if it starts with 15 bucks and Oh Geez, at that provides one whole nights a for a family. Yeah. Why don’t I go ahead and do 15 Yeah. Or you know, if they come in thinking that they can do $100, it’s they say hundred 50 and 240 how that money can make a difference that should promote upgrades as well. Um, you can tie it to, um, maybe fun periodic things. So this was a peer to peer campaign, uh, for the American Diabetes Association. And you can see they kind of had fun with the suggested gift amounts.
Steven Shattuck: (42:32)
They kind of tied it to, um, the history of the organization because this campaign occurred on some sort of significant date in the, in the organization’s history. So if you can do this, if you choose not to be program centric and it’s, that’d be org centric, make sure you have kind of a reason to be work centric. But the other reason I like this giving ladder is the numbers are kind of weird, right? $29 $52 $110 even the Coburn place ones are sort of weird. $15 $60 $240 I’m not a huge fan of 10 25 50 100 thousand because it’s kind of arbitrary, right? Boring might be harder. Tie those dollar amounts to a specific purpose, right? You kind of have to go, okay, what are we spending $1,000 on? Well, we know that specific thing we need cost $139 or $294. That I think we’ll tell the donor that what you’re asking for was maybe thought through a little bit more and it’s more of a real thing versus kind of like an arbitrary round number.
Steven Shattuck: (43:47)
It was just kind of pulled out of the sky. So I would encourage you to maybe experiment with those things. Maybe get with your programming people and say, Hey, what are some, you know, typical services we provide? No, what’s the dollar amount actually tied to those things. You know, how, how much does it cost to, to vaccinate a kitten? Uh, how much does it cost? Who, uh, keep an dolphin fed for a day, you know, find out how this fun impact these things. And then I think you can tie your giving ladder online and then tell the donor, you know, that’s what the money can go towards that impact it makes. Um, okay. Number seven, this is a simple one. Make sure you have a monthly giving options, monthly giving retention rates super high. Uh, if you get a monthly donor, it’s really hard to lose that tdner.
Steven Shattuck: (44:37)
I mean you really have to kind of screw up of her for that to happen above 90% retention rates there. So a check box, hey, make this monthly gifts, you know, that’s and I think all of you can probably do that. I haven’t really seen any software that doesn’t allow that. Maybe paypal or it can be a little harder I think. Um, another thing, and you’ll see this later on, an example is no, maybe that page should start monthly and they have to opt into annual gifts. You know, that can be something interesting to try. You gotta be careful there because if the donor thinks they’re making a onetime gift and then they get charged in that second month, they might be mad. So be very careful about deciding to do that. It’s not a universal recommendation by me by any means, but I have seen that where you go to a donation page and it starts monthly and you have to turn it into an annual gift versus what we [inaudible] usually see, which is here, where they have to opt in to the monthly gift.
Steven Shattuck: (45:37)
Monthly donors are great, high retention rates, also much more likely to leave a bequest, a Richard Radcliffe. I found that monthly donors are seven times more likely to leave a gift in their will. Then a annual donors. So a monthly donors, they’re great. Um, hopefully you get a lot of monthly donors through your website so we could, okay. Okay. Winding down, uh, number eight, social proof. So anything that you can put on that page just to give that donor some trust. Hey, this is a secure donation. You know, if you care about your watchdog rating, I know that the mixed bag, and I’m not saying that’s always a good thing, but if you care about that, do you have a four star rating through charity navigator or something like that? That may be something you want to put on there. Any kind of little graphic design asset or element that just kind of shows that this is a secure donation, you know, the, the visa logo has been shown to increase trust in a page.
Steven Shattuck: (46:37)
Um, so you might want to include those things, you know, manually if they aren’t already included on your floor. And then number nine, Kinda touched on this a little bit, but I want to hammer the idea home. I think that the donors should feel good as they are donating on your website. Like I said, anything you can make it to feel less transactional, the better in my mind. I love this page from spike savers. It’s like my favorite online donation page ever. It has like everything I’ve talked about, it does everything. So first of all, there’s nothing else that they can do on this page besides donate, right? Because the navigation has gone. There is no like scrolly picture things as have sidebars. There’s just the form with some really, really nice supporting content. I mean this page almost as like cheering you on as you’re donating, uh, to, to site favors.
Steven Shattuck: (47:33)
No, you’re doing something amazing. No one should go blind from avoidable causes. How many people say, well, you help us save today. You’ve got a kid who’s smiling that mom is smiling. Oh my gosh, that, that top banner I just love. It’s beautiful. And then we’ve got this nice form, right? This is what I was thinking of. You can see that it starts monthly and you have to click the if one to go and do an annual gift. But in both cases they’re suggested gift amounts with justifications and they’re weird gift amounts, you know, $7 $14 $21 and that’s on the monthly side. That’s why they’re lower. If you were to click give one, they’re higher. I think it’s like, you know, $52 $12 like that where your money goes. And I know I’m not a huge fan of like, you know, overhead spending and things like that.
Steven Shattuck: (48:24)
I think they do a really good job of showing, hey, this is kind of where the money goes towards the terms of different things. Um, and then you’ve got the social proof at the bottom. You’ve got the payment methods, logos. Oh, you got some security check marks. This is it guys. I mean this is, this is a really nice page. Um, I think this could be a model for you honestly, and you could donate and you fill out the form. Um, it’s great. But I think the main reason I want to show this to you is it really kind of makes the donor feel good about what they’re doing. You probably already convinced them if they’re on this page now in addition to actually getting the donation, make them feel good about it. Right. You know, if you can change the wording on the donate button, you know, change a life, you know, save the wetlands, you know, feed a kid and whatever it is.
Steven Shattuck: (49:15)
Like that kind of language I think can really make the donor feel good about what they’re doing. And the last thing, and this applies to all nine other things I’ve talked about, is, you know, measuring and be keeping an eye on how we’re doing now. How is that giving ladder performing? Do we need to change it up through, should we go from $52 to $47? You know, does that make a difference? It’s a photo. We’re using the best photo. Well, let’s Ab tested. Let’s have one page that has one photo and another page and another photo. See which one does better? So all those things, you can be continuously testing, um, ab testing. You may have that in your provider. We actually don’t need your provider. To do ab testing to actually do that. You can use a tool called Google optimize. It’s free.
Steven Shattuck: (50:05)
We use it at blue ring. Yeah, we have a vendor and we never really cared that they have ab testing. We just use Google optimize. You can go in and you can say, Hey, I want to test something on this page or the website and you can make the changes within Google optimize and it’ll send half of the visitors to one page and another half to the other page. And it’s just awesome dashboard and you can see which page is winning. And it’s great. So Google optimize. I would definitely use to do all this testing. Um, it’s awesome. So they’re going to serve up the right pages at the right time. So check that out. Uh, so wrapping up retention, go in and customize your confirmation page and that automatic email receipt, um, makes those things nice gift acknowledgement.
Steven Shattuck: (50:54)
They don’t act, just be boring. A transactional a wrote things that they’re just going to get closed or deleted, right when they appear. Um, you want that branded giving page, we can embed it for them. So nonprofit.org/donate, so be a form on that page. That’s it. That’s the only advice there. There’s no if, ands, or buts about it. You don’t want an extra step. You don’t want the donor to have to go to another webpage or another site. Paypal was your only option. You got to ditch that, theres a billion online giving providers. Most of them are, are all great. You invest in money. I think it’d be worth it. Responsive, responsive, responsive. That’s the word. Say That, uh, to your web designer, especially if you’re in the midst of a new website, view that word responsive and tests a reaction, uh, on the page. Don’t want a ton of distractions, just that form and just that supporting content, photos, texts, um, even videos I think can be a little too distracting.
Steven Shattuck: (51:55)
I like photos, but I like a video on the confirmation page for sure. And then make the donor feel good. Right? You should be clapping them along, sharing forum as they’re there on that page. So you’ve got some homework. I would donate to yourself tonight, honestly, and kind of go through the process, uh, yourself. And see what, it’s like, and definitely test it on an iPhone or your Samsung phone, your iPad, your laptop, you know, test it and you can’t, you can’t get it for every single device. I know it’s not going to look 100% Awesome on every single device out there on the market, if your website is responsive and if your forms are responsive, you should be, In pretty good shape there. So if you liked this presentation, I would invite you to checkout, uh, the bloomerang site. You got an awesome resource library.
Steven Shattuck: (52:47)
Pretty proud of it. And we’ve got templates, we’ve got downloadable. Like Jay said, I’ve got my own webinars series and every Thursday it’s free, almost as good as the DonorSearch series. I think you’ll enjoy. I’d like to see your name in there. Uh, if you go from this on to that one, um, I really only scratched the surface here. There’s a couple of people that I really, kind of Bow My hands down to as the experts in this field. I would follow these two people on Twitter. Um, BD and Brady, they’re awesome. They’re human, like really new in depth. Awesome. Nerdy. Okay. Really cool stuff. Experiment AB testing there. I think that you foremost experts in this topic. This is really just an appetizer to, to the kinds of things they’re recommending. So I would follow those two on Twitter if you care about this topic specifically.
Steven Shattuck: (53:41)
Um, even digital, they’ve got a lot of good advice on email and uh, and other digital things as well. Um, if you want to optimize that automatic email, here’s a template for you. This kind of has all the bits and pieces. So if you want to go in and customize that thing, here’s a little template for you that you could use. Also got one for snail mail letters. If you want to maybe look at your thank you, a letter in the mail as well. So a couple of templates for you. We’ll get you all that good stuff. Um, but Jay, we’ve got time for questions. Maybe five or six minutes for question, but I think we said four o’clock. So I am happy to, to hang out for a few more minutes if there are any questions.
Jay Frost: (54:20)
Excellent. Thank you so much, Steven. Yeah, really great content. This was not just a reviser for many of us, uh, but it was really great stuff. Do you have a number of questions and before we begin with those, I just want to give this reminder that, um, you’ll be receiving a copy of this slide deck, uh, in your email. Um, so be on the lookout for that. But as you can see right here on the screen, there is Steven’s contact information, so please take it down, including his Twitter handle. So you want to be on the lookout for his content, what he’s sharing both through the website and through his social channels. I’m going to jump in here and start with a question that came in early from Thomas who said, Steven, would you suggest using the confirmation page, email receipt to convert folks into monthly givers? I know you’ve talked about this a bit, um, but he’s that, would that be too, uh, too much of an ask upfront? And I think you did talk about this, but I thought I’d give you another chance to address.
Steven Shattuck: (55:18)
That’s a good question. I think that that confirmation page in that email, the primary purpose should be to make that donor feel really good about what they just did. Um, I, my gut says, and I’ve only been thinking about this for the five seconds since you asked it, Jay, but my gut says is that probably too soon. Um, because you did just back that right? Hopefully you had that monthly giving option. Um, so then maybe swoop in and do that so soon I think might be a mistake, although everyone’s different and that may be something interesting that you want to try. Right? You could maybe have two confirmation pages ab testing at the same time and she um, if it actually does generate some new monthly donations but what I would recommend kind of more broadly is get a donation, do a really good job thanking them.
Steven Shattuck: (56:15)
And then I would maybe segment your, your list afterwards, maybe a month or two afterwards and say, okay, we’ve got some online donations. Did we get any online donations that were maybe $20 or less or maybe $50 or less? Let’s segment those people into a group and let’s do a campaign to them. It talks about monthly giving. So you can imagine getting an email like, hey, Steven, thanks so much for donating. You know, last month you know you’re making a huge impact already, but you know we have this monthly giving program. It just so happens to start at the, you know, the monthly at, at the, at the gift amount you made, you know, you gave us $5 hey we’ve got to, we’ve got a monthly giving program that starts at $5 you can increase your impact for the whole rest of the year and longer, you know, would you be interested in maybe learning more about that? I that’s kind of what I would do is maybe just segment those online donors and get smaller donors and push monthly giving on those folks. I would, I would honestly save that confirmation page and the, the email, thank you for thinking, stewarding and learning more about the donor. So a survey or a tour invitation, something like that. Then maybe another appeal so soon after.
Jay Frost: (57:31)
And in fact, I think because of the way you answered that, you answered another question at least in part from Sophie at who had said that like the idea of testing pages, but it seemed that you can’t have two at once and do you test them for a while and then switch to another, you were talking about it in the context of, of testing this with a, I guess a subsequent appeal, a segmenting, and then I’m doing that kind of Ab approach. Uh, but do you have thoughts in general about, uh, ab testing, um, with, uh, with, with elements of the site for different audiences, things of that nature?
Steven Shattuck: (58:05)
Yeah, I think that you should, you know, we, you probably only have one donate page. I think that at any given time you should be running a test on that. Honestly. Uh, you know, one element don’t test a bunch of things all at once. It’s, it’s one element. It’s like one photo or one giving ladder versus another giving ladder. So, you know, at Bloomerang, you know, we’re a for profit, but we’re testing pages on an ongoing basis all the time. And I think that nonprofits can, can and should do the same thing. Um, but, but I think the key there is, and this is a whole other, you know, ab testing is a whole other presentation, but one element, because if you test multiple elements, you didn’t really know what it is that’s moving the needle. So change the suggested gift amount is a great test. Um, if there’s a photo on the page, maybe a photo versus not a photo, you know, the text versus not text or different, different types of paragraphs, but do one test at a time, um, and then, and then choose that clear winner. I think that’s, that’s, that’d be my advice for you Sophie.
Jay Frost: (59:11)
One variable. We had a question from Laura who said, are there any suggestions for good questions or things to say during thank you calls and you’re going through all that. And you said maybe a long number, maybe not, but I know the thank you calls would be a reason for that. What kind of questions would you suggest for that?
Steven Shattuck: (59:32)
I think if it’s, if it’s a first time donor, if you know it’s their first gift, do you call them and they pick up the phone, which is great by the way. There’s a ton of data that shows that’s awesome for first time donors, I would ask them, what, what prompted your gift today? You know, what’s your connection to our cause and why do you care about clean water? Why do you care about the Chesapeake Bay? Why do you care about the stray pet population?in Louis, you know, I think just that simple, hey, why did you give, you know, what’s your connection? Um, uh, and, and that will allow you to communicate to that donor. Um, things that make sense to them, right? If you are a nonprofit, it has a wide service offering and you are sending lots of different types of stories. Well, if you get that reason for donating, then you can send them really specific things in your newsletter or stewardship pieces.
Steven Shattuck: (01:00:25)
Tell certain stories. And the thank you letter. That’s the number one question I would ask. Um, a new donor, an existing donor. Um, you know, if you’re making a thing, you call just someone that’s been giving to you for five years, 10 years, I don’t think the question is, is as big of a deal as just making sure that you, um, are recognizing that, like that giving, you know, hey Jay, I have noticed you donated the other day just wanting to call and say thanks for the many years of support that you know, you’ve been giving to me, to the organization. Um, you could maybe ask that repeat donor, you know, if you ever have any questions or concerns, you know, please call me day or night, you know, here’s my contact information. I think just extending that invitation for feedback would be good on the repeat donor side. But new donor, I would ask them why, you know, who the am can we gotta be curious about these people? I think we’re not very curious about our donors, especially first time donors. You know, I’m asking you, do you got an earth day present and the mail from a total stranger? You probably want to know, you know why that person is giving you a gift. I think it’s the same for nonprofits asking what’s up,
Jay Frost: (01:01:40)
you know, you said something at the end, uh, Steven about donating to yourself, which I know some people do to, yeah, just test their systems, see work, see what you get. But it’s true and the end isn’t it? I mean, it goes if you’re making a donation or let’s say it’s, if you want to be really mysterious about it, if it comes from a member of your family, but you’re right there in the house. So you know what happened, you know how that felt going through the process, whether or not that works for you. If there was anything that stuck out and then all the way through to, did you get a nice, you know, note this actually personalized. Was it addressed to you? Was it hand signed? Did you get a phone call? Yeah. So I don’t know how you’d know all really for real until you try.
Steven Shattuck: (01:02:18)
Yeah. I mean, ask a neighbor ask a friend.
Jay Frost: (01:02:20)
friend. Nope, you’re an easy sure. Or maybe even a board member or even a development director that has a fundraising staff, you know, ask a friend and say, hey, I want to know when did you get, what’d you get in the mail? I see the emails on, see the letter that here, that could be a really good way. Cause if you donate yourself, right, like you said Jay, you’re knocking cause you’re going to, you’re going to see and say, oh we don’t need that person. But yeah, that could be very interesting. And um, you know, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t, uh, throw that in someone’s face necessarily, but I think you could have a productive meeting or a conversation about that if you were to do it.
Jay Frost: (01:02:59)
Yeah. Well thank you so much Stephen. I know we went a little over the hour, but I really appreciate this. I know everybody here did too. And uh, once again, everybody take down as Steven’s information. You can see it right down the screen and do be on the lookout for this slide deck coming to you. But there’s lots more resources right there through that link. So I’m due to go in there and check that out. Check out his webinars, coming up every Thursday. Terrific content with wonderful presenters. And, um, and I also want to encourage everybody to take a look, uh, under the resources tab of where you’ll find at donorsearch.net you’ll find recordings of this session and all the other sessions in this series posted right there so you can share it with colleagues. So again, our thanks to Stephen and I also want to, um, let you all know that if you want to put this on your calendar, we have two sessions coming up next week on Wednesday.
Jay Frost: (01:03:49)
The heart of the matter, how simple data analytics can boost your planned giving program. And that’s what Linda Garrison. And then on Thursday, the next day members gone wild reigning in the rogues with Scott Koskoski coming back to the Flash Class stage. And during the presentation at the end here, Steven mentioned a couple of names, including Brady Josephson. Brady is going to return in one of our six sessions in August. We have people like John Hayden, if you don’t yeah, you want to see that. Um, John Hayden, Brady Josephsen, Tim Bertram, Scott Lang, Sophie Penny, Claire Axelrad. Lots of great stuff coming up ahead. So, uh, to be on the lookout for that, I want to also give our thanks once again to done a search for providing this platform where we can bring in people like Steven Shattuck to talk with us and teach us of very grateful to them, obviously, uh, to Tarrence stigs in the background here, making sure that, um, that everything is available to you. So our thanks to Terrence and, uh, this is Jay Frost and it’s been a pleasure having you. We’ll look forward to seeing you next time. Take care.